Recently I've been involved in a Creative Writing Workshop.
And today is the day that they looked at my own story.
I knew that there were things going to be said about it - but I didn't know how large of a level it would be.
Not a single good word was said about it. It was all how the story was unbelievable in places, why it wasn't so good in some places, and "try to be original".
After class was over, I left a little more broken than before. Because I thought I had something with the story I wrote. I thought that I had created something that was finally good and that people would like but apparently not.
Then my mind began to swirl about how it seemed like all my writing was like this. None of it was good enough. And then all the things that have been said about my work:
"No wonder you're not published"
"You have the pacing of a three-year-old trying to re-enact a Midsummer Night's Dream"
"This is atrocious."
The part that still irks me is how writing is the one thing that I can do with some level of competence. Or at least that's what I thought until today.
Now, I have nothing left.
A Bad Day In Workshop
Moderators: Sunlily92, windsong, BlueGobi, Moderators, Astrid
-
shatteredhopes
- Posts: 664
- Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:39 am
- Location: U.S.
You would be horrified if you saw my writing attempts when I took creative writing in college...I attempted to copy other writers' styles or when I branched out on something totally creative, it was truly awful...my professor said I was too consumed with ideas I was learning and maybe didn't have enough life experience...some of the things I write now are really liked, some (that I think are even better) are hated or unappreciated...in the modern existential aesthetic, the beauty of art is in the eye of the beholder...
As I told someone else on this forum the other day, how many writers do you love whose first novels or short stories are pretty awful? TONS! And just because a group of (maybe pompous little intellectuals) other writers criticize you, doesn't mean other people might not love it.
The main thing is keep at it. Life experiences will change you as a writer. Your post shows natural writing ability. Maybe write some nonfiction for now, polish and perfect your craft, and toy with more ideas...write from personal experiences first, then maybe branch out into things more imaginative...have you thought for instance about writing from the depths of depression?
Don't give up. Hard to take criticism, I know, but let it help you produce something better....take some of it with a grain of salt, however. Think how many publishers/editors turn down something they don't think is good and presume won't sell, then someone else publishes it and it becomes a best seller or literary classic...I know you like me have heard tales of all the great books that were repeatedly turned down or often criticized...
So please don't give up something you love and may be your life's calling because your early attempts are a struggle. You will grow as a human being and writer over time, and may produce some things that are truly magnificent.
Just don't give up!
As I told someone else on this forum the other day, how many writers do you love whose first novels or short stories are pretty awful? TONS! And just because a group of (maybe pompous little intellectuals) other writers criticize you, doesn't mean other people might not love it.
The main thing is keep at it. Life experiences will change you as a writer. Your post shows natural writing ability. Maybe write some nonfiction for now, polish and perfect your craft, and toy with more ideas...write from personal experiences first, then maybe branch out into things more imaginative...have you thought for instance about writing from the depths of depression?
Don't give up. Hard to take criticism, I know, but let it help you produce something better....take some of it with a grain of salt, however. Think how many publishers/editors turn down something they don't think is good and presume won't sell, then someone else publishes it and it becomes a best seller or literary classic...I know you like me have heard tales of all the great books that were repeatedly turned down or often criticized...
So please don't give up something you love and may be your life's calling because your early attempts are a struggle. You will grow as a human being and writer over time, and may produce some things that are truly magnificent.
Just don't give up!
shatteredhopes wrote:You would be horrified if you saw my writing attempts when I took creative writing in college...I attempted to copy other writers' styles or when I branched out on something totally creative, it was truly awful...my professor said I was too consumed with ideas I was learning and maybe didn't have enough life experience...some of the things I write now are really liked, some (that I think are even better) are hated or unappreciated...in the modern existential aesthetic, the beauty of art is in the eye of the beholder...
As I told someone else on this forum the other day, how many writers do you love whose first novels or short stories are pretty awful? TONS! And just because a group of (maybe pompous little intellectuals) other writers criticize you, doesn't mean other people might not love it.
The main thing is keep at it. Life experiences will change you as a writer. Your post shows natural writing ability. Maybe write some nonfiction for now, polish and perfect your craft, and toy with more ideas...write from personal experiences first, then maybe branch out into things more imaginative...have you thought for instance about writing from the depths of depression?
Don't give up. Hard to take criticism, I know, but let it help you produce something better....take some of it with a grain of salt, however. Think how many publishers/editors turn down something they don't think is good and presume won't sell, then someone else publishes it and it becomes a best seller or literary classic...I know you like me have heard tales of all the great books that were repeatedly turned down or often criticized...
So please don't give up something you love and may be your life's calling because your early attempts are a struggle. You will grow as a human being and writer over time, and may produce some things that are truly magnificent.
Just don't give up!
That's the irony, the story that was workshopped was written from the depths of my depression.
I try to take comfort in the idea that my favorite authors were turned down so much before they got accepted.
But there is a little thing that creates a large gap between them and me.
The thing is called "Talent".
Apparently I don't have it.
And I'm not sure if I can grow as a person from this experience because it makes me think of getting out of life early.
-
TackingIntoTheWind
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:35 am
- Location: South Wales
I'm not so sure that writing is about " talent ". Something that you either have or you don't.
One of my favourite writers when I was growing up was Robert A Heinlein. He formulated five rules of writing. ( They are on the internet, I was able to Google search for them and print them off, although I'm not sure precisely how I found them, sorry!
)
1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must avoid re-writing, except to editorial specifications.
4. You must put what you write on the market.
5. You must keep what you write on the market until it's sold.
Heinlein said that writing was largely about persistence. Somebody once asked him wasn't it foolish to publish his five rules of writing, wasn't he afraid of inspiring new writers to compete with him? Heinlein replied that he wasn't afraid of creatings rivals for himself, because most people would NEVER actually buckle down follow his rules and actually write anything.
Also, a crime writer called Elizabeth George, ( I think that's her name, I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check, but I think that's her name. )has written a very interesting and useful book call " Write Away ", and she seems to feel that writing is a craft that can be taught and learned, rather than an inborn talent.
Is writing a " talent " or a craft that can be learned? I don't know, but I choose to believe the latter
Also, I haven't been a part of a writers group, so I can't really comment on how they work. However, I rather wonder if at least a few of the people at such groups might have an " agenda " of their own. In theory, such groups should be a nurturing environment, a " safe space " where people can hone their skills. But.....I wonder sometimes if perhaps there are some people who try to " tear down " other people in order to " build up " themselves. Just a thought.....
I would certainly ask you not to give up on writing...
One of my favourite writers when I was growing up was Robert A Heinlein. He formulated five rules of writing. ( They are on the internet, I was able to Google search for them and print them off, although I'm not sure precisely how I found them, sorry!
)
1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must avoid re-writing, except to editorial specifications.
4. You must put what you write on the market.
5. You must keep what you write on the market until it's sold.
Heinlein said that writing was largely about persistence. Somebody once asked him wasn't it foolish to publish his five rules of writing, wasn't he afraid of inspiring new writers to compete with him? Heinlein replied that he wasn't afraid of creatings rivals for himself, because most people would NEVER actually buckle down follow his rules and actually write anything.
Also, a crime writer called Elizabeth George, ( I think that's her name, I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check, but I think that's her name. )has written a very interesting and useful book call " Write Away ", and she seems to feel that writing is a craft that can be taught and learned, rather than an inborn talent.
Is writing a " talent " or a craft that can be learned? I don't know, but I choose to believe the latter
Also, I haven't been a part of a writers group, so I can't really comment on how they work. However, I rather wonder if at least a few of the people at such groups might have an " agenda " of their own. In theory, such groups should be a nurturing environment, a " safe space " where people can hone their skills. But.....I wonder sometimes if perhaps there are some people who try to " tear down " other people in order to " build up " themselves. Just a thought.....
I would certainly ask you not to give up on writing...
TackingIntoTheWind wrote:I'm not so sure that writing is about " talent ". Something that you either have or you don't.
One of my favourite writers when I was growing up was Robert A Heinlein. He formulated five rules of writing. ( They are on the internet, I was able to Google search for them and print them off, although I'm not sure precisely how I found them, sorry!
1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must avoid re-writing, except to editorial specifications.
4. You must put what you write on the market.
5. You must keep what you write on the market until it's sold.
Heinlein said that writing was largely about persistence. Somebody once asked him wasn't it foolish to publish his five rules of writing, wasn't he afraid of inspiring new writers to compete with him? Heinlein replied that he wasn't afraid of creatings rivals for himself, because most people would NEVER actually buckle down follow his rules and actually write anything.
Also, a crime writer called Elizabeth George, ( I think that's her name, I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check, but I think that's her name. )has written a very interesting and useful book call " Write Away ", and she seems to feel that writing is a craft that can be taught and learned, rather than an inborn talent.
Is writing a " talent " or a craft that can be learned? I don't know, but I choose to believe the latter
Also, I haven't been a part of a writers group, so I can't really comment on how they work. However, I rather wonder if at least a few of the people at such groups might have an " agenda " of their own. In theory, such groups should be a nurturing environment, a " safe space " where people can hone their skills. But.....I wonder sometimes if perhaps there are some people who try to " tear down " other people in order to " build up " themselves. Just a thought.....
I would certainly ask you not to give up on writing...
I'm not wondering about giving up on writing.
I'm wondering about giving up on life. Since writing is the one thing I can do with any mild competence and yet it seems like I don't even have that. So really that means that I have no real use in life.
-
shatteredhopes
- Posts: 664
- Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:39 am
- Location: U.S.
I understand it hurts when you allow yourself to be vulnerable and exposed by putting something that you wrote in front of others and they go for the jugular...but it is a hasty fallicious leap to go from that to that you cannot write some great things in the future, or even that this piece might not be appreciated by others outside the writers group, which I agree with (((((((((((tacking)))))))))) may have their own agendas...
But even, worst case scenario, if you cannot write (which I still believe you can based on the natural way with words you demonstrate in your posts), it does not logically follow that you have no use. Have you considered writing on a volunteer basis to help out a charity or to advance a political position or policy? Volunteering in another capacity to find talents and skills you may not know you had? There are plenty of ways to be useful in this life...
I think your main problem is with depression often comes low self-esteem and lack of confidence. If you feel compelled to write then it is likely something you are destined to do in life or likely to succeed in if you persist. Are you getting professional treatment for depression? Have you called a crisis line when you get suicidal or considered in-patient treatment?
When I said that about experience I meant that you will likely do better when you start writing from life experiences with which you are familiar, its much harder to write about the death of loved one for instance if you have never experienced the death of a loved one. In time you will mature as a writer and human being, just as I at nearly 50 am still growing and learning, and have more to offer than I did when I was 25, and less than I will when and if I hit 80...
If you want to write, you can, hurtful as those comments are, you have toughen your skin and learn to take criticism at times as something constructive you can grow from, or dismiss it at times, recognizing that art is somewhat subjective and what one likes another may hate, and sometimes people have their own agendas.
Don't check out on life so young when you could be depriving the world of whatever talents and skills you do have, and missing out on a future that could be great.
And ((((((((((((tacking))))))))))))) thank you for posting those rules, I am definitely getting back to my novel. Publishing little things here and there is satisfying for a while, but I really want to do this and take a shot....at least if I fail I will know I gave it an honest try...glad you are taking a shot too my friend, and I hope Brokenpen you will keep at it, and get some help with the depression. Too much depression can hinder rather than inspire you...and if you wrote this piece from the depths of depression, is it possible those reading it had no clue nor understanding, whereas those who have experienced severe depression might totally relate? Maybe it was just the wrong audience for this piece.
But even, worst case scenario, if you cannot write (which I still believe you can based on the natural way with words you demonstrate in your posts), it does not logically follow that you have no use. Have you considered writing on a volunteer basis to help out a charity or to advance a political position or policy? Volunteering in another capacity to find talents and skills you may not know you had? There are plenty of ways to be useful in this life...
I think your main problem is with depression often comes low self-esteem and lack of confidence. If you feel compelled to write then it is likely something you are destined to do in life or likely to succeed in if you persist. Are you getting professional treatment for depression? Have you called a crisis line when you get suicidal or considered in-patient treatment?
When I said that about experience I meant that you will likely do better when you start writing from life experiences with which you are familiar, its much harder to write about the death of loved one for instance if you have never experienced the death of a loved one. In time you will mature as a writer and human being, just as I at nearly 50 am still growing and learning, and have more to offer than I did when I was 25, and less than I will when and if I hit 80...
If you want to write, you can, hurtful as those comments are, you have toughen your skin and learn to take criticism at times as something constructive you can grow from, or dismiss it at times, recognizing that art is somewhat subjective and what one likes another may hate, and sometimes people have their own agendas.
Don't check out on life so young when you could be depriving the world of whatever talents and skills you do have, and missing out on a future that could be great.
And ((((((((((((tacking))))))))))))) thank you for posting those rules, I am definitely getting back to my novel. Publishing little things here and there is satisfying for a while, but I really want to do this and take a shot....at least if I fail I will know I gave it an honest try...glad you are taking a shot too my friend, and I hope Brokenpen you will keep at it, and get some help with the depression. Too much depression can hinder rather than inspire you...and if you wrote this piece from the depths of depression, is it possible those reading it had no clue nor understanding, whereas those who have experienced severe depression might totally relate? Maybe it was just the wrong audience for this piece.
shatteredhopes wrote:I understand it hurts when you allow yourself to be vulnerable and exposed by putting something that you wrote in front of others and they go for the jugular...but it is a hasty fallicious leap to go from that to that you cannot write some great things in the future, or even that this piece might not be appreciated by others outside the writers group, which I agree with (((((((((((tacking)))))))))) may have their own agendas...
But even, worst case scenario, if you cannot write (which I still believe you can based on the natural way with words you demonstrate in your posts), it does not logically follow that you have no use. Have you considered writing on a volunteer basis to help out a charity or to advance a political position or policy? Volunteering in another capacity to find talents and skills you may not know you had? There are plenty of ways to be useful in this life...
I think your main problem is with depression often comes low self-esteem and lack of confidence. If you feel compelled to write then it is likely something you are destined to do in life or likely to succeed in if you persist. Are you getting professional treatment for depression? Have you called a crisis line when you get suicidal or considered in-patient treatment?
When I said that about experience I meant that you will likely do better when you start writing from life experiences with which you are familiar, its much harder to write about the death of loved one for instance if you have never experienced the death of a loved one. In time you will mature as a writer and human being, just as I at nearly 50 am still growing and learning, and have more to offer than I did when I was 25, and less than I will when and if I hit 80...
If you want to write, you can, hurtful as those comments are, you have toughen your skin and learn to take criticism at times as something constructive you can grow from, or dismiss it at times, recognizing that art is somewhat subjective and what one likes another may hate, and sometimes people have their own agendas.
Don't check out on life so young when you could be depriving the world of whatever talents and skills you do have, and missing out on a future that could be great.
And ((((((((((((tacking))))))))))))) thank you for posting those rules, I am definitely getting back to my novel. Publishing little things here and there is satisfying for a while, but I really want to do this and take a shot....at least if I fail I will know I gave it an honest try...glad you are taking a shot too my friend, and I hope Brokenpen you will keep at it, and get some help with the depression. Too much depression can hinder rather than inspire you...and if you wrote this piece from the depths of depression, is it possible those reading it had no clue nor understanding, whereas those who have experienced severe depression might totally relate? Maybe it was just the wrong audience for this piece.
Yeah, I tried professional help and they were pretty much useless since it seemed like I was getting worse the more I went.
As far as calling a crisis line...I'm not so sure about them because usually people try to tell you about how much you have to live for. And I'm pretty sure that it'd be a pretty hard pressed thing to think of reasons for.
-
TackingIntoTheWind
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:35 am
- Location: South Wales
I would ask you to consider very careful what (((( shatteredhopes )))) said.
what you say reminds me VERY much of what I was thinking and feeling when I was at my lowest point, in June last year. One of the particular and most dangerous aspects of my depression is what my suppert workers called " catastrophising ". Something bad happens and it triggers fear and anxiety in me out of all proportion to the event. smal, fears become vast terrors, I miss my bus and become convinced that the world is doomed!!!!
So, I am not, in any way, shape or form, dismissing your feelings. I know, from my actual personal experience, how real, powerful, and frightening they are. It is because I have had the experience that I have, that I feel comnpelled to disagree with you.
When I feel anxious and depressed, I have to work to avoid being swept away by my feelings. I have to force myself to think logically, coldly, rationally about what triggered my feelings. " Just the facts, Ma'am. ", as Jack Webb used to say on Dragnet.
I have to be honest with you, ( Otherwise what's the point in anyone posting anything, on this site, or any other?
So, here goes.....
1. You state as a fact that you have no competence as a writer. " Since writing is the only thing that I can do with any mild competence and yet it seems like I don't even have that. "
I would submit that there is no HARD evidence that I can see to support this conclusion.
I remain concerned that you are extrapolating a too final and too rigid a conclusion, from too small and unreliable a sample of evidence.
I may be wrong, I don't know you. ( I'm in my forties, and I'm not sure if I really know me.
) However, I remain very doubtful about the quality of feedback that you got from that writers group, and I suspect that your depression, as mine does, may be colouring your self-image.
Also, I have to admit that there seems to me to be no real logic in your conclusion. " So really that means that I have no real use in life. "
Being a writer would be a fine and wonderful thing to be, It is something I woud SO, SO, SOOOOOO want to be. Stories have always fascinated, comforted, to some extent even healed me in the decades since I've learned to read. I have have the greatest respect, and admiration for the writers who have changed, enriched, sometimes almost even saved my life.
However, to say that if you can't be a writer you have no use in life, is I would have to say leaping to a conclusion that I would have to say is simply unfounded, based on my own experience at least. I have the greatest respect for doctors, particularly the ones who saved my life by giving me the help I needed, just when I needed it!!!!!!!! I would very much to be a doctor. The healer's calling is an honourable and fine one. But I can't. I don't have that in me. I can't stand the sight of blood, illness scares me, and I could never achieve the necessary " professional detachment ", that balance between distance and empathy that a good doctor has to have to help people, or even to survive themselves.
Do, I think that it would be rational for me to say that if I can't be a doctor, then I have no real purpose in life? No I don't. I f I can't be a doctor, then I'll be something else. If I can't be a writer, then I'll be something else. But, as long as I'm alive I have the hope that I have the chance to be SOMETHING. As, I remain convinced you do.
So, I would agree with (((( shatteredhopes )))), based purely on your writing skills that you've demonstrated on this thread, I would submit that you have writing skills at least equal to some published authors that I've read. In the forty-odd years I've been reading I have read some ABSOLUTE TRIPE AND UTTER DRIVEL!!!! ( I recently read a SF novel that I simply gave up on, it was so oddly written. The writer got bogged down in a four-page rant against " socialized medicine ", that not only had NOTHING to do with the plot, but angered mre so much I stopped reading. Like most British people I'm ardently pro- " socialized medicine." ! ) And yet somehow it gets published and paid for. S, why not keep writing and see what happens. ( If you write a novel and it's published I WILL SO be saying, " Told you so. "
Also, as (((( shatteredhopes )))) said, you are waaaaaay too young to be SURE that you don't have a purpose, or what that purpose may be. Some of my best, most precious experiences in my life happened to me when I was on my way to somewhere else....
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give yourself the same chance....( Just some thoughts. I only have my own experience to talk about.
what you say reminds me VERY much of what I was thinking and feeling when I was at my lowest point, in June last year. One of the particular and most dangerous aspects of my depression is what my suppert workers called " catastrophising ". Something bad happens and it triggers fear and anxiety in me out of all proportion to the event. smal, fears become vast terrors, I miss my bus and become convinced that the world is doomed!!!!
So, I am not, in any way, shape or form, dismissing your feelings. I know, from my actual personal experience, how real, powerful, and frightening they are. It is because I have had the experience that I have, that I feel comnpelled to disagree with you.
When I feel anxious and depressed, I have to work to avoid being swept away by my feelings. I have to force myself to think logically, coldly, rationally about what triggered my feelings. " Just the facts, Ma'am. ", as Jack Webb used to say on Dragnet.
I have to be honest with you, ( Otherwise what's the point in anyone posting anything, on this site, or any other?
So, here goes.....
1. You state as a fact that you have no competence as a writer. " Since writing is the only thing that I can do with any mild competence and yet it seems like I don't even have that. "
I would submit that there is no HARD evidence that I can see to support this conclusion.
I remain concerned that you are extrapolating a too final and too rigid a conclusion, from too small and unreliable a sample of evidence.
I may be wrong, I don't know you. ( I'm in my forties, and I'm not sure if I really know me.
) However, I remain very doubtful about the quality of feedback that you got from that writers group, and I suspect that your depression, as mine does, may be colouring your self-image.
Also, I have to admit that there seems to me to be no real logic in your conclusion. " So really that means that I have no real use in life. "
Being a writer would be a fine and wonderful thing to be, It is something I woud SO, SO, SOOOOOO want to be. Stories have always fascinated, comforted, to some extent even healed me in the decades since I've learned to read. I have have the greatest respect, and admiration for the writers who have changed, enriched, sometimes almost even saved my life.
However, to say that if you can't be a writer you have no use in life, is I would have to say leaping to a conclusion that I would have to say is simply unfounded, based on my own experience at least. I have the greatest respect for doctors, particularly the ones who saved my life by giving me the help I needed, just when I needed it!!!!!!!! I would very much to be a doctor. The healer's calling is an honourable and fine one. But I can't. I don't have that in me. I can't stand the sight of blood, illness scares me, and I could never achieve the necessary " professional detachment ", that balance between distance and empathy that a good doctor has to have to help people, or even to survive themselves.
Do, I think that it would be rational for me to say that if I can't be a doctor, then I have no real purpose in life? No I don't. I f I can't be a doctor, then I'll be something else. If I can't be a writer, then I'll be something else. But, as long as I'm alive I have the hope that I have the chance to be SOMETHING. As, I remain convinced you do.
So, I would agree with (((( shatteredhopes )))), based purely on your writing skills that you've demonstrated on this thread, I would submit that you have writing skills at least equal to some published authors that I've read. In the forty-odd years I've been reading I have read some ABSOLUTE TRIPE AND UTTER DRIVEL!!!! ( I recently read a SF novel that I simply gave up on, it was so oddly written. The writer got bogged down in a four-page rant against " socialized medicine ", that not only had NOTHING to do with the plot, but angered mre so much I stopped reading. Like most British people I'm ardently pro- " socialized medicine." ! ) And yet somehow it gets published and paid for. S, why not keep writing and see what happens. ( If you write a novel and it's published I WILL SO be saying, " Told you so. "
Also, as (((( shatteredhopes )))) said, you are waaaaaay too young to be SURE that you don't have a purpose, or what that purpose may be. Some of my best, most precious experiences in my life happened to me when I was on my way to somewhere else....
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give yourself the same chance....( Just some thoughts. I only have my own experience to talk about.
TackingIntoTheWind wrote:I have to be honest with you, ( Otherwise what's the point in anyone posting anything, on this site, or any other?
1. You state as a fact that you have no competence as a writer. " Since writing is the only thing that I can do with any mild competence and yet it seems like I don't even have that. "
I would submit that there is no HARD evidence that I can see to support this conclusion.
Then again there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence in the other direction. For one if I did have the talent - I'd be published by now.
As far as the evidence that I have nothing else as far as useful skills - I think 10 years of trying to gain skills in any other profession, science, law, medicine, technical, and so on. I've pretty much failed miserably at.
A writers needs to reach the right audience. You can't please everybody. Just because someone or some group gave you a bad review is no reason to assume your writing is bad. My entire life I've been hearing from people how my music sucks and then some day I found people who like it. It's all about connecting to people, if you don't have a common spike with the reader, it really doesn't matter how good your writing is objectively.
nbarts wrote:A writers needs to reach the right audience. You can't please everybody. Just because someone or some group gave you a bad review is no reason to assume your writing is bad. My entire life I've been hearing from people how my music sucks and then some day I found people who like it. It's all about connecting to people, if you don't have a common spike with the reader, it really doesn't matter how good your writing is objectively.
Finding an audience is one thing - getting them to read your stuff is another.
Return to “Living with Depression and other Related Health Concerns”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 77 guests