Depression Understood Forums

Recently, in order to...try...and make my own writing better, I had read this book by a favorite author of mine; Stephen King. The book is called "On Writing".

The book I felt was informative but then I came to this section on page 144 that read, "But before we go on, let me repeat my basic premise: if you're a bad writer, no one can help you become a good one, or even a competent one."

Upon reading that a very real and palpable anxiety came over me. How do I know if I'm a bad writer? What sort of litmus test is there to measure such a thing? I've already gone through every field I can think of for some kind of job or career and if writing falls through for me then I'm pretty much screwed.

After all, as my mother told me a lot of the time with whatever ailments I get, "You're just stuck with it." (I'm certainly glad my mother isn't a doctor with that kind of advice).

Maybe I am a bad writer. After all, I have been told that I have "the pacing of a three-year-old trying to reenact a Midsummer Night's Dream".

This is the curse of having a good memory: you do remember good things but the bad memories are extra sharp. And so every slam and flame that I've gotten for my work comes back at me as unexpected as a cold spell in the middle of summer.

And people at different writing sites, including the Stephen King message boards, weren't as helpful or as supportive. After all, I had been accused of "playing Hamlet" and "whining too much". Honestly, whenever someone like us, who suffers depression, and expresses it to others it's always thought of as whining.

Still, if I can't be a writer, then there really is only one option left for me.

keep writing on hhere broken pen ,we always enjoy your posts ,im sure you will find what you want one day ,,,keep walking the road is long ,if you stop here ,your journey can never end ,,best wishes xn728

all i can say is keep writing and follow your dream. to readers like us who also suffer from depression, your writing will not seem like whining, it will be the blessed relief of being understood

Don't give up, please. You can always reinvent yourself. I have recently tried looking for a career myself.

I understand how you are feeling. Don't give up, though. Take care!

BrokenPen wrote:The book I felt was informative but then I came to this section on page 144 that read, "But before we go on, let me repeat my basic premise: if you're a bad writer, no one can help you become a good one, or even a competent one."

Upon reading that a very real and palpable anxiety came over me. How do I know if I'm a bad writer? What sort of litmus test is there to measure such a thing? I've already gone through every field I can think of for some kind of job or career and if writing falls through for me then I'm pretty much screwed.

...

Maybe I am a bad writer. After all, I have been told that I have "the pacing of a three-year-old trying to reenact a Midsummer Night's Dream".

...

And people at different writing sites, including the Stephen King message boards, weren't as helpful or as supportive. After all, I had been accused of "playing Hamlet" and "whining too much". Honestly, whenever someone like us, who suffers depression, and expresses it to others it's always thought of as whining.

Still, if I can't be a writer, then there really is only one option left for me.

Even if someone really and truly is, "a bad writer," that doesn't mean they're a failure. Look at Dan Brown ("Da Vinci Code") or Stephanie Meyer ("Twilight"). They're both highly successful, but if you sit down and actually analyze their prose, you'd find that YouTube comments are generally of higher grammatical quality than the atrocities these authors committed to paper. They are less than competent writers; their books read like an excited 12-year old with an electronic thesaurus wrote them, yet they're raking in millions of dollars...hardly the definition of "failure."

The other thing you're completely overlooking is the editing process. I can't think of any esteemed author or screenwriter who sat down, wrote a manuscript and published it as-is. There are ALWAYS character development issues, plot holes, pacing issues, grammatical inconsistencies, etc. but the point of the editing process is to eliminate the cruft and turn the manuscript into something palatable by your intended audience. Authors hate editing because they refuse to acknowledge that any part of their art should ever end up on the cutting room floor, but it really is an essential part of the process.

I can't speak to your story, but to be honest, in my opinion a lot of depression testimonials DO come across as whiny and self-indulgent-- and this is coming from someone who suffers from it! Here's why:

I hate reading about other peoples' depression, drug trips, dreams, nightmares or schizophrenia because it's highly subjective and impossible to make sense of, like trying to describe the geometric structure of something as amorphous as smoke. The experience is different for each and every one of us.

In the context of depression, if *I* think the world is a good place, and you're going on and on and on and on and on and on about the world being a bad place, as a reader I'm going to get frustrated reading such things because I can't reconcile it with my own perception of reality. People have issues with Cormac McCarthy's books ("No Country for Old Men," "The Road") because his conclusions are always so damn bleak, and this runs afoul of the way most people perceive the world.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there as reasons for why you may be getting the reception you are. Don't give up though. A lot of artwork is referred to as "diamonds in the rough" for a reason.

statutoryepa wrote:

BrokenPen wrote:The book I felt was informative but then I came to this section on page 144 that read, "But before we go on, let me repeat my basic premise: if you're a bad writer, no one can help you become a good one, or even a competent one."

Upon reading that a very real and palpable anxiety came over me. How do I know if I'm a bad writer? What sort of litmus test is there to measure such a thing? I've already gone through every field I can think of for some kind of job or career and if writing falls through for me then I'm pretty much screwed.

...

Maybe I am a bad writer. After all, I have been told that I have "the pacing of a three-year-old trying to reenact a Midsummer Night's Dream".

...

And people at different writing sites, including the Stephen King message boards, weren't as helpful or as supportive. After all, I had been accused of "playing Hamlet" and "whining too much". Honestly, whenever someone like us, who suffers depression, and expresses it to others it's always thought of as whining.

Still, if I can't be a writer, then there really is only one option left for me.

Even if someone really and truly is, "a bad writer," that doesn't mean they're a failure. Look at Dan Brown ("Da Vinci Code") or Stephanie Meyer ("Twilight"). They're both highly successful, but if you sit down and actually analyze their prose, you'd find that YouTube comments are generally of higher grammatical quality than the atrocities these authors committed to paper. They are less than competent writers; their books read like an excited 12-year old with an electronic thesaurus wrote them, yet they're raking in millions of dollars...hardly the definition of "failure."

The other thing you're completely overlooking is the editing process. I can't think of any esteemed author or screenwriter who sat down, wrote a manuscript and published it as-is. There are ALWAYS character development issues, plot holes, pacing issues, grammatical inconsistencies, etc. but the point of the editing process is to eliminate the cruft and turn the manuscript into something palatable by your intended audience. Authors hate editing because they refuse to acknowledge that any part of their art should ever end up on the cutting room floor, but it really is an essential part of the process.

I can't speak to your story, but to be honest, in my opinion a lot of depression testimonials DO come across as whiny and self-indulgent-- and this is coming from someone who suffers from it! Here's why:

I hate reading about other peoples' depression, drug trips, dreams, nightmares or schizophrenia because it's highly subjective and impossible to make sense of, like trying to describe the geometric structure of something as amorphous as smoke. The experience is different for each and every one of us.

In the context of depression, if *I* think the world is a good place, and you're going on and on and on and on and on and on about the world being a bad place, as a reader I'm going to get frustrated reading such things because I can't reconcile it with my own perception of reality. People have issues with Cormac McCarthy's books ("No Country for Old Men," "The Road") because his conclusions are always so damn bleak, and this runs afoul of the way most people perceive the world.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there as reasons for why you may be getting the reception you are. Don't give up though. A lot of artwork is referred to as "diamonds in the rough" for a reason.

You say all that and tell me not to give up?

Seems a bit like telling someone who has found out that he has a terminal disease to have a nice day.

BrokenPen wrote:
You say all that and tell me not to give up?

Seems a bit like telling someone who has found out that he has a terminal disease to have a nice day.

No, it's nothing of the sort. If that's all you've gotten out of what I said then I am the one who is the failed writer.

You're being too self-conscious over a single judgmental sentence penned by an author, who nowadays, is himself considered to be somewhat of a hack. You've latched on to this notion that you already are a bad writer and there is nothing that can be done to fix this. I'M TELLING YOU THIS IS WRONG. From what I've seen of your posts, you're not a bad writer.

If people are taking issue with your pacing and style, you just need someone else to review your work and help you improve it. Do you *really* thing Stephen King wrote all of his books without them being proofread or edited? He was not a one-man show. People read his manuscripts, told him to change things so it made sense to more than just Stephen King and his works are better off for it. How far into his book are you? Is there not a chapter that discusses the editing process?

Right now you're in a deepening rut because you can't find work, in which case I offer my condolences. But you've also taken to blaming yourself for being unemployed and a bad writer, and what I'm trying to tell you is that (a) it's not your fault you're unemployed, and (b) you aren't as bad as you think you are. Re-read my diatribe against Brown and Meyer. They're terrible writers. You are not. The economy is crap right now and times are tough, but with your eloquence in writing non-fiction I promise you will not be unemployed forever.

statutoryepa wrote:

BrokenPen wrote:
You say all that and tell me not to give up?

Seems a bit like telling someone who has found out that he has a terminal disease to have a nice day.

No, it's nothing of the sort. If that's all you've gotten out of what I said then I am the one who is the failed writer.

You're being too self-conscious over a single judgmental sentence penned by an author, who nowadays, is himself considered to be somewhat of a hack. You've latched on to this notion that you already are a bad writer and there is nothing that can be done to fix this. I'M TELLING YOU THIS IS WRONG. From what I've seen of your posts, you're not a bad writer.

If people are taking issue with your pacing and style, you just need someone else to review your work and help you improve it. Do you *really* thing Stephen King wrote all of his books without them being proofread or edited? He was not a one-man show. People read his manuscripts, told him to change things so it made sense to more than just Stephen King and his works are better off for it. How far into his book are you? Is there not a chapter that discusses the editing process?

Right now you're in a deepening rut because you can't find work, in which case I offer my condolences. But you've also taken to blaming yourself for being unemployed and a bad writer, and what I'm trying to tell you is that (a) it's not your fault you're unemployed, and (b) you aren't as bad as you think you are. Re-read my diatribe against Brown and Meyer. They're terrible writers. You are not. The economy is crap right now and times are tough, but with your eloquence in writing non-fiction I promise you will not be unemployed forever.

I certainly hope so.

I think you write very well. Please keep pursuing your dream; sometimes it is a hard road in getting there but you can perservere. I would not base all my thoughts on one negative comment that I got. I am sure you have had positive comments too. Why not focus on those and build from there? I don't believe King's statement that writing cannot be improved. Bulls#$@!

As anyone could tell from reading my run-on sentences and typo-ridden posts, I AM NOT a natural writer. The only way I can produce something is repeated editing. My ideas are much better than the writing itself. You, on the other hand, appear to be a natural. You are just leaving school, so don't give up before you start. Many professional jobs require writing skills. Unfortunately, the economy is such that there are few of ANY SORT of jobs right now.

If you can afford to work on commission, look at craigslist for grant/proposal writing. Easy to learn how to do if you are already a decent writer. Pays on average $85 an hour. Once your bills are paid, on the side you can write what you want and build a career out of writing what you really want to write. Also, pick up the "Writer's Market" even if not in the U.S., or parallel for your country. Freelancing is one way to go. Enter contests. If you rack up some awards, getting publishers or a professional post will be easier.

I know these things, but I am too paralyzed by the depression and too old and completely defeated by life. You are young, and have your whole life to write and win the Nobel for literature. Deal with your depression NOW as I know for me it has exponentially grown worse...between the inadequacies of the mental health profession and extraordinary life tragedies, I'm pretty much done...at least for the moment.

You know, perhaps you're reading the wrong books as far as seeking tips on writing. King's book is not meant entirely as a reference, it's also a work of entertainment, which means it's not 100% gospel. Some things are thrown in there to get a laugh out of people who aren't taking it as seriously as you are.

Instead, try reading something like this. It's meant as a reference, not a work of entertainment, so you might actually get something positive out of it. It's also highly rated on Amazon and is the textbook of choice for my college's creative writing class.

I don't know how you currently do your writing, but this author at least recommends that you not write piecemeal-- don't start writing one chapter, then another, then another, because the pacing will invariably be sloooooooooow. Instead, sit down and write your story, start to finish, in one sitting. Give yourself a time limit, or a word limit, to get as much of the story out as you can in that sitting. Then go back and add details as you see fit.

I can attest that this actually worked for me. I focused on powering my way through a short story and didn't spend so much time endlessly describing everything down to the regularity of my character's bowel movements. My pacing sped up drastically as a result-- I didn't feel compelled to just put words on a page for the sake of justifying a chapter's length; it taught me to put words on a page only if they're directly relevant.

Just don't confuse this with the practice of freewriting she mentions earlier in the book; they serve entirely different purposes.

Good luck